Freya Ward (01:18.893)
So here we are with the next episode of B2B Marketers Off the Record. I am delighted to be joined by Tony Larks. Tony is a senior marketing leader, fractional CMO, and someone I’ve had the pleasure of knowing for a little while in the industry. Who better to introduce yourself than Tony?
Tony Larks (01:36.086)
Hi, Freya my God, amazing. For those that don’t know, we’re recording this on the hottest day of the year. Not only hot because it’s hot outside, but hot because we’re to have this conversation about marketing. yeah, so Tony Larks, senior marketing leader. I think one of my team recently said veteran.
Freya Ward (01:41.913)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (01:53.186)
I thought it was really rude. That was an HR violation straight away. then yeah, fractional CMO, basically marketeer for hire. think that’s what that means. Between roles, I’m currently finding my next opportunity. And I’ve been in the industry like 30 something years, 35 years. Oh my God. I used to tell people I was only 35 years old, but now I’m telling people I’ve been in the industry that long. It’s like Before Marketing: BM.
Freya Ward (02:13.865)
You have indeed.
Freya Ward (02:20.467)
You were
Freya Ward (02:21.237)
were born into the marketing position before you before you could even crawl. Tony, because you’ve been in the industry for some time, I’m really curious to your answer to this one. Tell me you’ve been in B2B marketing for a while without telling me. I’ll go first. So mine is usually business cards. I love the nostalgia around business cards. I still like having a printed business card. but yeah, I’m curious to hear what yours is.
Tony Larks (02:23.372)
Good. Yeah.
Tony Larks (02:43.872)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (02:46.045)
Is yours, have you got the embossed? Is it like proper thick card and it’s embossed and yeah, nice, nice. I bet you’ve got a QR code on there as well, haven’t you? Just to make it easy for people.
Freya Ward (02:50.355)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (02:54.931)
J
Freya Ward (02:56.182)
I haven’t advanced as far as a QR code. I think there’s something really personal about the exchange of a business card. my mum’s definitely still got mine on her fridge somewhere. but yeah, I I mean the last time I had them printed was probably a couple of years ago now. So I’m I’m due a I’m due another two hundred and fifty to hit my desk.
Tony Larks (03:02.646)
There is, there is.
Tony Larks (03:16.174)
I’ve got this vision of your mum with this big American fridge just with like versions of Freya’s business card. But, my God, tell me I’ve been in B2B. I’ve been in B2B for a long time. So there’s probably two. One was actually, well, actually three. My God, it’s even worse. I’ll let you pick the favorite one of the three. My first marketing campaign, I wrote on a digital typewriter where you could actually type the letter once, type the header block and the headline and dear, and then it would type the rest of the letter for you.
Tony Larks (03:46.018)
And as quickly as it was typing the next one, you’re writing the details, doing the envelope and posting it in a franking machine. Progressed onto fax email, faxing, like fax servers where we do fax mailers overnight or over the weekend. That was always good fun. finding out that you’ve completely ripped someone’s fax roll overnight. People got very upset about fax spam. yeah, think those are, and my favorite one and probably is when email first started, we used to look to see who’d
Tony Larks (04:15.908)
the email or click to link by looking at the web logs to see which ones it clicks and then we use those to follow up. So that was like before the days of like people just don’t have got it so good now. Yeah, before we even started talking about attribution, we used to do a lot of that. So that’s how old I am for IA. So.
Freya Ward (04:33.737)
Well, I
Freya Ward (04:36.039)
love it. I think bring back the original ways. it’s interesting. Our managing director at Headley often speaks about the fax machine going off in the office and it being an insertion order coming back from a client and a booking coming through and the buzz of the noise of the fax machine going off. Maybe not on the same receiving end as receiving some marketing collateral or some marketing messaging and advertising through the fax machine.
Tony Larks (04:48.555)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (05:00.354)
The relationship with sales, we used to tell salespeople our job was to make the fax machine just pour orders. That was that element of tension that you had is our job is make the fax machine whir and then you can claim the commission. It hasn’t changed today, to be honest, has it?
Freya Ward (05:15.003)
No, it’s just
Freya Ward (05:15.654)
moved move digital and and yeah, maybe more intense scrutiny on the statistics and the digital data. But yeah, I like I like the commitment from a marketer to to prove engagement through weblogs. so Tony, tell me how did you get into B2B marketing in the first place?
Tony Larks (05:27.712)
my god, yeah, those are the days.
Tony Larks (05:34.273)
Oh my god, so I started my career actually in procurement for a manufacturing company. I got very lucky to meet somebody on the train one day who just started this company near where I lived in Brighton and he’d just finished doing the Crossrail project and now he was buying bits and bytes for making kettles and ferradic muscle toners and he was looking for an assistant. I joined him, I was only 17, 18, got very young and I learned a lot about buying and procurement
Tony Larks (06:04.227)
procurement and just in time and we had about 120 people on the production line and this is when in the days you knew you hadn’t done a good job when 120 people were just sat doing nothing for six hours whilst they completely changed the production schedule because you didn’t get a screw in on time. And then we used to have the old days big factory and then an office block and in the office block was procurement and marketing. The marketing people just seemed to live the best life. They were off to events and they were off to lunch and they seemed to always be happy whereas I always used seem to
Tony Larks (06:34.887)
getting a kicking off the floor. So anytime I could, when I wasn’t busy, I’d go and hang out with them to work out what they were doing. And one day, one of them said their husband was running an IT event in London and she didn’t want to go and did a fancy taking a week’s holiday. And it was the Which Computer Shopper Show in Olympia. It was like 1989, 1990. And I did it, I think I earned more money in three days on a trade show selling software than I did in a month working in a factory. And I just said to the guy, like, if you were ever
Tony Larks (07:04.09)
hiring I’d happily join you in a heartbeat and I did. Started in sales, it was just the two of us working day and night and then I realised very quickly that calling and selling was actually really hard but actually the marketing piece just meant you could scale and as we grew I sort of moved more into the marketing side of things and we grew that business ultimately we bought another, we sold it and that’s essentially where my career started but it’s all about people. I got lucky with the guy on the train, I got lucky to hang out with the marketing team, I got lucky
Tony Larks (07:34.023)
to do that first trade show that gave me insight into the IT industry of that day and I got lucky to have the opportunity to sort of pivot from sales which is hard into marketing which is equally hard but a lot more enjoyable.
Freya Ward (07:47.245)
such an interesting
Freya Ward (07:48.436)
start. And do you know what, Tony, more and more people that I speak with and ask about how they got into B2B marketing in the first place, it’s often that people tripped and fell, or they were in the right place at the right time, or like you say, they saw other people in that position and thought, what what are they doing? And then you start learning the art of marketing and the the psychology behind it and all that side of things. And I think that’s where it really starts to take off.
Tony Larks (07:58.059)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (08:05.376)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (08:10.881)
content.
Tony Larks (08:13.515)
How did
Tony Larks (08:13.755)
you get into it for a hour? Has anybody ever asked, like, need to turn the tables on you? Like, what was your entry into B2B?
Freya Ward (08:20.137)
I I I tripped and fell. I I tripped and fell for sure. I
Freya Ward (08:23.92)
I wasn’t sure what to do with myself. I I failed all my GCSEs at school and I I was on a path of just working working in pubs and restaurants and doing a bit of data entry as a kind of side hustle for a recruitment company and things like that and I approached my local college and I said to them, I think I wanna learn something but I wasn’t great in education and they said, Start with an apprenticeship
Tony Larks (08:39.542)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (08:49.099)
Right.
Freya Ward (08:49.841)
So I went for an interview at what I thought was an apprenticeship for a HR role and it turned out to be an apprenticeship for a marketing role at a B2B marketing agency, specializing in the electronics field and yeah, it kinda took off from there. I got on really well with the managing director, moved into that position and then worked my way up, studied in the evenings, did did
Tony Larks (08:59.808)
and
Freya Ward (09:11.463)
Pub work on the weekends to make up the shortfall of the rent and yeah, the rest is history. But I did the flip the other way. So I went marketing into sales, but still cutting my well, yeah, cutting my teeth in the marketing side and then still in touch with the marketing side by working working with B2B marketers like yourself.
Tony Larks (09:13.142)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (09:16.29)
Thank you.
Tony Larks (09:26.303)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (09:28.676)
And in agency, which is the hardest part, but at least you swerve the HR piece. I love HR business partners, any HR people watching, big fan. Not sure I could do it as a career though. So what I’m, what I’m for swerving that.
Freya Ward (09:39.065)
No. I think when it
Freya Ward (09:41.867)
came down to my personality profiling in the business environment and things like that, I’m not really cut out for HR. so Tony, throughout your career you’ve seen kind of lots of different parts of marketing, lots of different developments in marketing. What’s one belief that you’ve changed your mind on in the last couple of years?
Tony Larks (09:47.542)
No.
Tony Larks (10:00.765)
my god, so we told that story about checking weblogs.
Tony Larks (10:08.653)
That web evolution was amazing. Actually, the change to web in the mid to late 1990s with the birth of the internet and worldwide web, those markets that missed out on that probably struggled. Same thing with the mobile generation, people that moved into mobile and missed that. So I’ve tried to avoid the AI. I’m not going to go down the AI piece, although it is adjacent to that. I was always a massive fan of gating. If I created an asset, and actually one of my first things I did in my last role, we did this
Tony Larks (10:38.467)
massive project where we created this huge report called the accountability gap and we designed it for like C-level executives and non-exec directors and I was like we invested so much in the creation of it I was like we’re definitely gating that content we’re not going to give that away for free and I think probably in the last 12 months as I’ve learned more and more around how agentic and financial AIs work that that world of putting the barriers up just has to be removed. Whereas you might convince
Tony Larks (11:08.43)
the CIO or the CISO that the content is so compelling, they have to tell you who they are to be able to get access to it. The LLMs don’t follow the same rule sets. For me, I’m removing the gates, which I’m probably not is what you’re doing. You’re probably putting more gates out, which is brilliant because we need that as well. But as a brand, you need to make yourself as visible as possible.
Freya Ward (11:31.325)
Yeah, I think there’s a time and a place for it. And I think the introduction of AI crawlers and, you know, if you optimization for AEO and if if you want to appear if you want your brand to be surfaced in that search world, especially with the the buyer becoming more and more educated and wanting to conduct their own research, we have to shift our mindset around the actual quality of a piece of content or the value of a piece of content for the recipient.
Tony Larks (11:42.72)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (11:59.115)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (12:01.523)
Do you mean more so on the the tech company’s website side? So providing providing resource and educational content ungated. Do you still think there’s a place for third party gating and lead generation?
Tony Larks (12:12.469)
Yes.
Tony Larks (12:15.105)
Bye.
Tony Larks (12:16.417)
Definitely because we need leads. You need to be able to identify who the buyer is, but you could do it in other ways from a vendor side. yeah, the relationship with third party syndication sites is even more necessary, I think, in this world because the hardest thing now is, I think it always used to be like 50 % of the research was done before they contacted a vendor. I saw some research the other day that said that’s now 80%. In this piece of work I’ve just done for a cybersecurity scale up,
Tony Larks (12:46.371)
we identified an average buying group of about 17 different.
Tony Larks (12:52.766)
and personas and six of those being agentic. And it’s the first time I’ve done a piece of work where we’ve actually been able to identify the agentic side of things and their role and relationship. And that’s not just then how a buyer is using agents to do their own assessments. That sort of agent’s almost working in their own right. I was on a panel last week and it was a wonderful woman, Tiffany Jackson from Dell, who I think they said they’ve actually got agent to agent buying.
Freya Ward (12:56.883)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (13:22.839)
just intermediating with human in that cycle. Now, it’s the things like warranties, know, it’s the run rate things, but that’s the world we’re sort of moving into. And I think that’s what as marketeers is we need to embrace. you’re always going to need a mix, but I think as a vendor, it’s create the asset and then it’s create the asset of assets and break those assets down and try and tune content, whether it’s video-based, voice-based or even reaction pieces. I’d love to see the reaction piece to this webcast, by the way. I’m dread to see.
Freya Ward (13:25.937)
That’s crazy.
Tony Larks (13:52.649)
what the reaction piece is. But that’s what LLMs thrive on. They thrive on that third party validation. yeah, for me, gating content. But yeah, as Mark sees, we’ve got to embrace that and understand that world we’re moving into because it’s just changing so, so quickly.
Freya Ward (13:53.523)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (14:09.917)
Yeah, and I think that there’s a real there’s a real piece in this as well, about almost the perception from a AI search crawler or whatever it might be, whatever’s conducting the research from an AI point of view, there’s a a perception piece. If you are hosting your own content and it’s ungated, then there’s more value in it
Freya Ward (14:31.151)
from the AI’s point of view, there’s more value in that content than if I think a third party is gating that content. Because if they’re coming from a position that is unbiased and they’re coming from a position that, you know, is there for a purpose, then the value is stronger than coming directly to a vendor, directly to a company website and consuming their content, populating a form. There’s so much information that’s readily available and out there that
Tony Larks (14:40.075)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (14:55.199)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (14:56.605)
conversation we were having before hitting record, I think Tony, you mentioned something along the lines of if you don’t supply that content ungated, then someone else will be and it will just read re root and redirect and go somewhere else.
Tony Larks (15:06.08)
I will.
Tony Larks (15:10.146)
I mean, the company I worked for just recently, when we assessed who was educating our buyer as to our proposition, it was Gartner, it was G2crowd, it was Reddit, and then it was our competition. So we didn’t even stack rank in the top seven.
Tony Larks (15:29.675)
for our own brand because other people have been able to create content that was more compelling to the LLMs. And that’s the challenge you’re gonna have. And that’s where sometimes you think, like they say, it’s hallucinating. It’s not, it’s where’s the, it’s trusted source of information. And it loves that whole comparison to others. It loves that, not this, but that, it’s that element. So it thrives on that type of content. But if you’re not telling your story well enough, then others will, so.
Freya Ward (15:56.093)
Yeah, such an interesting point. And it takes me on to my next question, which we’ve kind of already touched upon, but how are you seeing B to B buyers evolving? How how are they what are the changes that you’re seeing in B to B buyers at the moment?
Tony Larks (16:10.143)
Yeah, I think like the last three, four years, we’ve been able to do a lot around looking at, first party intent, is sort of what you see on your own site, or looking at these sort of third party intent data sources where you get an indication that organizations might be looking at certain technology or technologies. It gives you a sort of that lift into sort of say who from your target account list is potentially a market.
Tony Larks (16:37.205)
I think that’s going to become harder and harder. I think that that element of those intense sources will become less and less clear in terms of outcome. There were already a little bit sort of obfuscated. You don’t really know is it, are they actually in market researching for those things or are they?
Tony Larks (16:57.09)
they’re just doing it for their own personal interests. So what is true intent? And I think when I look at competition, you always think about your main competitors and who you go up against as a win or lose business. But the competition in many cases is do nothing or up against doing it in house or they’ve identified the solution to the problem without even referring to you. It’s almost like the deal happened without you knowing. It’s like when you go for a walk with a dog in the woods and you see there’s a tree down.
Tony Larks (17:27.043)
It wasn’t down a few days ago and you’re like, I didn’t see or hear that happen. You won’t because unless you’re near it at the time, you wouldn’t have known it was going to happen. So it’s like, what are the things that would give you that indicator? What are the commit signals that potentially is something that’s happening and how do you tune into those? So I think as B2B Marketers, we’ve got to try and really engage people in more meaningful ways. I had a colleague, I worked with back in at Trend Micro and we’re going back to like 2000.
Tony Larks (17:56.963)
2007 and I connected him recently for a coffee. That’s as fractional CMOs. You have a lot of coffee by the way and I used to describe marketing as convincing somebody to do something they hadn’t intended to when they woke up this morning and then I evolved that sort of say as I grew up a little bit because that sounds a little bit manipulative but I evolved it to say but if they’re not ready now that they you leave with a good impression so they’ll come back to you in a week a month six months or a year and he said I carry that with me because it did describe
Freya Ward (18:03.132)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (18:26.883)
of what we did and I think as B2B Marketers there’s an element of how do you truly identify the 3, 5 or 7 % of people that are in market trying to solve a problem now and identifying a problem and actually enabling them to understand that you’re a chosen solution for that and a lot of that’s going to have to be done in the research they’re doing to identify those solutions. So partners become very important whether it’s partners like Headley or it’s partners like the big GSIs or VARs or resellers or distributors that’s that
Tony Larks (18:56.806)
ecosystem play. But I truly think it’s that element then of how do you challenge people into thinking, it’s not a priority for me today, but actually it’s something I need to prioritize because I see I’ve got an issue. It’s not one for today because I’ve got other priorities, but I’m to come back to it three, six, nine months time. And as long as you can position yourself as somebody who’s not desperate, then hopefully they’ll consider you when they come back to look at it in the future. And it’s just maintaining that relationship and contact.
Tony Larks (19:26.659)
And a lot of what I’m doing at the moment is looking at how do you use B2C techniques around communicating and nurturing. Like in B2B marketing, think nurtures are going to send you an email every three to seven days. It’s like white paper, noise, you know, I’ve got an event, I’m doing a thing. You’re throwing these things at people. Whereas B2C is more around telling stories and just involving a conversation. So how do we do that more and more in B2B? How do you make, I hate that term humanise the brand, but just treat
Tony Larks (19:56.579)
people like people and just keep in touch and just be ready for when they are ready to solve a problem that you can help them with.
Freya Ward (20:05.865)
I think that’s that’s all of that is so true, Tony, and I think there’s a real opportunity to get your brand in front of people much earlier on in that journey. Like you said, before they even start researching, before they even know they have a problem, before they even have that ’cause we would
Tony Larks (20:19.297)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (20:21.851)
taught five, six, seven years ago in B2B marketing, it was all about creating urgency and pressure. And, you know, you remember in cybersecurity field, the the hoodies and the hackers and the, you know, if you don’t, this’ll happen and all that side of things. And I think, you know, there’s still a play for that for sure. But actually humanizing and bringing emotional marketing into it, learning from the B2C side of things, like you said, and positioning your brand as
Tony Larks (20:32.256)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (20:47.923)
Well, it’s the passive it’s the passive marketing, isn’t it? It’s the the awareness piece I think is making a big comeback. because there’s so much noise down that end of the funnel and if you can engage them much earlier on, there’s a little bit of space, there’s some brand familiarity, yeah, potentially gone are the days where it’s here’s another email from me, I’m doing this, here’s another piece of you know
Tony Larks (20:55.67)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (21:12.022)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (21:12.615)
I I do think there is still a place for digital nurture, but if you are only focusing on that urgency, creating that urgency, then there will be another vendor out there that is doing more of the emotional side of it, building that connection with their buyers. And you talked earlier about that decision making committee and how big it’s becoming. There’s the agentic piece. I I’m so shocked that you managed to get to a point in research where you’re able to actually see agentic
Freya Ward (21:41.477)
search essentially in that buying committee. So there’s there’s lots of interesting things I think on the horizon for B2B marketers and the B2B buyer is do you feel the B2B buyer has more power now, maybe, than they they did before, because they’re c able the ability to conduct research so quickly?
Tony Larks (22:01.545)
Not sure.
Tony Larks (22:02.465)
how they’re more educated. There’s more opinion. Previously, they may have just gone to a Gartner and got the top right-hand corner of the Magic Quadrant and said, let’s focus just here and maybe look at some sort of tech startups or scale-ups that might disrupt that. But actually, I think the way you can do that research to truly understand what am I solving for? What’s my specific business need? And then using agentic to go and actually do that research for you.
Tony Larks (22:32.419)
and bring back what it feels like would be the best combination of solutions based upon sentiment. You’re seeing a lot of B2B vendors now spending a lot more time with those sort of sentiment sites like G2, CrowdHead, and Capterra, and Peer Insights. They’re more important in that LLM journey, but the voice of the customer is really important. Again, I built some sentiment engines that pull analyst views and these sort of peer review site views, and then even employees, and then underpinning that with like,
Tony Larks (23:02.292)
what’s Reddit saying, what people saying on Axe and LinkedIn, like the echo chamber and distilling it. Before that would have been a project for a procurement team to work on for a few months and even then they would have only got like an element of that. So I think that’s where agentic is really going to help the buyer. They’re just going to be better educated, more in the know. They’re going to be able to dispel some of the claims that vendors make very, very quickly because they’ve got access.
Tony Larks (23:32.275)
to more knowledge. And no different, again if I think in the early part of my career, so pre-web, we ran user groups and forums for different tech vendors, we bring people together and they would share that in a room with each other. It was that peer network. But you can now do it at massive scale in a matter of seconds and not just from say one peer group but from the entire community. So yeah, that’s I think that’s the challenge we’re going to be contending with. So you’ve got to be really good at servicing your
Tony Larks (24:02.115)
your current customers because that sentiment carries through and you only need a few poor reviews and that becomes sort of source of truth for these different engines.
Freya Ward (24:12.019)
Yeah, for sure.
Freya Ward (24:12.641)
So what’s what’s a bet then, Tony, that you think more B to B marketers need to make over the coming years?
Tony Larks (24:19.169)
Well, I think we all know that we need to become more AI native. What I’ve been looking at actually is, and again, it’s interesting, where organizations are rolling out AI, they’re sort of throwing out a copy of Copilot or Claude saying, go innovate. And I think the biggest challenge in B2B marketing is, if you look at our partners in finance, they’ve got a standard way of booking revenue, booking costs.
Tony Larks (24:49.086)
auditing their finances, reporting on it. It’s been developed over hundreds of years, going back to probably BC whatever, being able to maintain a set of books that could be opened and checked. B2B marketing is different, we’re all approaching it differently, we all have different processes or ways of reporting, and in many cases, what you’re reporting on, the business doesn’t care about.
Tony Larks (25:17.569)
I don’t want to overscore that we have to report more on revenue, but one of my early bosses used to say to me, revenue is vanity, profit is sanity, but cash is king. And you’re an MD of a company, so you must realize that as well. Business without cash doesn’t matter. And it’s the same thing in B2B marketing. If you can’t connect everything you’re doing to an outcome with revenue, then you don’t really have a place. I think as marketeers, working on a standardized set of processes and language that relate to
Tony Larks (25:47.523)
how you measure the value of a brand or any brand gaps, how you look at your ideal customer profile and personas, how you build out a funnel that’s not response MQL, SQL, close one, that actually looks at buying groups and engagement of those buying groups.
Tony Larks (26:04.865)
and then all the way through to conversion, but then customer retention because we all know you’ve got to retain your customers. So I think that standardized process for how we talk about B2B marketing is really, really going to become more and more important. Some of them do exist, but I don’t think they’re implemented in a standard way across industries or sectors.
Tony Larks (26:25.025)
I don’t think I’ve mentioned to you, Freya but in my spare time, I work for the ambulance service as a first responder. everything they do has a standardized process. So I’m a FREC 3, hard to say, community first responder. The way I approach a scene, I use methane, or I’ll do a 10 second triage, TST. When I engage a patient, I use Dr. C, ABCDE. There’s a lot of things in between. Like it could be, could do a sample assessment related to what was happening with the patient.
Tony Larks (26:55.671)
When I get another clinician, I’ll do an at-niss handover. But there’s standard processes and we all talk the same language. I probably approach my patients totally differently to the other thousand CFRs in our region, but we all have a similar way of talking so that when you are communicating to the next person in the chain, you’re passing on the pertinent information. I think B2B marketing could do with some of that, some of that standardised process that we all do the same thing so we do it well, which means that every other function who thinks they’re in marketing
Tony Larks (27:24.925)
can sort of not be in marketing anymore. They can just go and focus on their own thing and not worry about telling me about seeing an Instagram ad for a irrelevant brand and telling me we need to be doing the same thing. It’s a horrible term, but staying in lane. Obviously, I’m watching The Furies at the moment, I’m not going to the best role model, but yeah, you want the other functions to stay in their lane. And at the moment, I think everybody feels like they’re a marketeer and waiting.
Freya Ward (27:52.691)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (27:53.583)
Yeah. Do you know what it’s I love that example, Tony, because I speak to various marketers in startup all the way through to enterprise every single day and
Freya Ward (28:07.229)
The first thing I do is try and unpack what an MQL means to them, because it will mean something wildly different to one individual versus another. And sure as hell, if you’re taking that inside of your business as well and you’re then saying, you know, the CEO says we need more MQLs, do they mean they need more MQLs or do they mean they need more revenue? Or do they mean they need more, you know, th what is it that they actually need? And by simplifying terms and
Tony Larks (28:24.065)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (28:28.193)
Thank
Freya Ward (28:32.561)
I read I read an article the other day actually by a guy called Gareth James, works for a company called Hallam, an agency called Hallam, and he talked about translating your marketing to speak directly to a finance director and using terms profit and loss and things like that that they will truly understand. Something we tend to do as marketers is fall into justification speak, don’t we? Or we
Tony Larks (28:56.672)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (29:00.199)
We expect anyone that we’re speaking to to maybe understand the thought process, which is often an intense thought process and a very skilled thought process, but the thought process that’s gone into the tactics to then have an end result as revenue. That’s what the marketing department is paid to understand. The C-suite don’t necessarily understand that, or the fractional CMO, sorry, the fact fractional CMO understands that. The finance director, hopefully the fractional CMO.
Tony Larks (29:28.385)
Probably don’t. Probably don’t.
Freya Ward (29:30.115)
Understands it, but the finance team don’t understand it, and we can’t expect them to. Whereas if we can communicate in a way that they understand and, like your example, have a handoff that they understand, standardizing that language and standardizing even from a sales perspective, you know, the alignment between sales and marketing is so
Freya Ward (29:51.827)
fractured because you’re speaking you’re speaking in different ways. You want different things. You’re driving towards the same end result. But if the last time you spoke with your sales department was in the SKO at the beginning of the year, you’re already going off in a different direction. The business will have evolved, it’s moving even faster with AI and everything else. The B to B buyers changing. If
Tony Larks (29:55.67)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (30:12.891)
If you aren’t have if you haven’t got those common threads and the that common language, then it it all falls apart. And I love the idea of standardizing it across industries as well. Because yes, there will be nuances, there will always be differences whether, you know, the investment is higher or lower in a new product or solution, who’s involved in the buying committee and everything else will change, but the actual journey
Tony Larks (30:29.761)
Okay.
Freya Ward (30:41.969)
the path remains the same and I think it’s a really nice nice way of marketers being able to protect their budget as well. Because if you can communicate effectively why you’re doing well, we all know if you can drive the revenue side of it, then as a marketer you’re able to then have the capacity and not have all the eyes on you to be able to go off and do the creative things and do the more awareness pieces and do the experimental marketing. But the whole time there’s eyes on you and there’s that disconnect
Tony Larks (30:44.097)
you
Tony Larks (31:02.037)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (31:07.318)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (31:11.953)
you’re just held to revenue, which is also slightly unfair, you could say, because marketing can only control this part. It takes sales to to do the next part, right?
Tony Larks (31:22.089)
it’s the handoff between the different teams and I think there’s that you know
Tony Larks (31:25.663)
Again, we don’t do ourselves any favors. Is first touch, last touch, multi-touch, attribution? Who cares? Who needs to claim credit for it? We know there are multiple touches. Some are visible, some are not. Some relate to your brand. Some will be done through a partner and partner marketing. As long as you get to the right outcome, which is actually value for the customer, because it’s got to that value exchange, they’re part of that process as well.
Tony Larks (31:53.843)
It’s identifying all those different elements and touches. And that’s where we can do ourselves a favor, which is looking at deals and understanding. And AI will help us in a big way here and saying, I’m working on a deal with Freya but Freya has not done the things that our typical buyer would normally do. Let’s go and ask him a question. So are they truly a market? Are we truly a fit for them? Because it’s those things, it’s those awkward conversations that people don’t want to have. But we’ve now got the ability to tune into those signals and look at what is the makeup of an average deal?
Tony Larks (32:23.747)
timeline, how can it accelerate that timeline? But what are the things potentially in a deal that we are doing we’re missing because the buyer has not done those things that others have. And just use that as a red or amber flag to go and investigate further and use data to drive that conversation, not just Martin saying, I think we’ve got a problem. It’s actually saying, well, how do we go and solve for this? Like there’s a gap. We’ve identified a capability gap or a knowledge gap or a buying gap. Let’s go fix it. So, you know, I think the future is very bright.
Tony Larks (32:53.62)
I think we just got to embrace the technology, but try and standardize a little bit on some of those processes. I can say that because I’m probably coming to the end of my career and it’s what you want to do now. You leave a legacy. If I can leave an abbreviation in marketing that… How sad is my life? How sad is my life? yes, what were you known for? Well, I’ve managed to create an abbreviation for funnel marketing. brilliant. Well done.
Freya Ward (33:09.033)
I wanna I wanna
Freya Ward (33:19.773)
I created I created a seventeen
Freya Ward (33:22.305)
letter acronym that describes Tony, so tell me what’s one thing that you think B2B marketers need to stop doing?
Tony Larks (33:33.153)
I think just justifying themselves. I think most B2B marketers are
Tony Larks (33:40.979)
truly good people that do good work. But I think we just spend too much time like feeling anxious, justifying our role. You know, I’ve had a few instances in my career where people have pushed back on things that I’ve done. And the simplest thing is actually to turn it off and show people what happens when you’re not doing them anymore. And I think just have a bit more confidence. We like an organization without marketing is not an organization. It’s just a sales engine and it
Tony Larks (34:10.883)
will perform to a certain level, but it just forms a whole lot better with a of a marketing team behind it. So yeah, just be more confident.
Freya Ward (34:21.181)
Have the courage that
Freya Ward (34:22.343)
what you’re doing is effective and you know, we go sometimes it’s out of our control and we have to turn things off, but things happen when things get turned off. Yeah.
Tony Larks (34:30.155)
But sometimes knowing things up is good because when they’re
Tony Larks (34:32.668)
off, people see, well, that’s the impact. And it’s not, again, it’s really interesting having a perspective of seeing emergency care because…
Tony Larks (34:42.805)
like majority of the time you turn up to an incident isn’t about the medical issue. You just remove anxiety by being there. And I think a lot of marketing people, do feel a little bit anxious about their role in organizations at the moment. And they don’t need to be. If they’re doing the work they’re doing and they’ve got the insight into the customer. So I think maybe spend more time with customers, truly understand the voice of the customer or your partners, be out with sales, you don’t just sit at a desk. The more you do that, the more confident
Tony Larks (35:12.692)
you should have in terms of the work that you’re doing because it relates to what you see out in the field. So you can be a marketeer from behind a desk sitting at home in another country. You’ve got to be out and about. yeah, honestly, can be anything. Actually, I used to have a colleague who said, be anything in life, be kind. I feel that, just be anything in life, just be confident.
Freya Ward (35:37.107)
Become a marketing first responder.
Tony Larks (35:40.285)
Tony Larks (35:40.565)
God, can you imagine? I’m here to help! I’ve got my crayons, I’ve got crayons! What colour are you on?
Freya Ward (35:46.407)
No stop. It would just that would just
Freya Ward (35:48.999)
that would feed into the stereotype of mar what is it? Marketing is the arts and crafts department, which it absolutely is not.
Tony Larks (35:50.977)
Thank
Tony Larks (35:54.379)
Sorry, think
Tony Larks (35:56.31)
most people think first responders come with plasters, but actually I carry a defib and medication and a tourniquet. yeah, so I didn’t mean to play to the crayon. I would draw the crayon. Actually, can you just delete the crayon statement? Let’s do that question again. No, let’s leave it. I’m confident.
Freya Ward (36:15.411)
Think you should be confident, absolutely. no, I completely agree with you. I think that understandably so, what has happened with layoffs and you know businesses being purchased by private equity and everything else has impacted the B2B marketing department so much, right? And that is, I believe, where the anxiety has come from. It’s the cost department, to coin a terrible phrase. and if you’re able to
Tony Larks (36:41.653)
No.
Freya Ward (36:44.421)
Stand firm in your in your marketing in your marketing activity. If you’re able to translate the value of marketing to showcase revenue, if you’re able to speak to multiple stakeholders, speak to your customer, like you said, that’s a solid piece of advice. Get in front of the customer, go at from outside of your desk and actually talk.
Tony Larks (36:53.067)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (37:06.759)
to your customers, analyze, even speak with your existing customers and you know, why did you choose us? Where did not just where did you see us, because I think you touched on it earlier, the kind of last touch, first touch, last touch. We know that there’s I read a report the other day, I think it’s something like 17 different touch points now. And they’re just the ones we can measure. There’s all the dark metrics as well, right? But have that conversation and
Tony Larks (37:15.894)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (37:23.029)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (37:27.835)
Search a brand on Reddit, search it on G two, do that desk research essentially, but also pick up the phone and talk with your customers. speak to your sales team. Speak to the salespeople that are talking to customers and your account management team or whoever it might be, right? So
Tony Larks (37:41.761)
Do what Freyr said, that’s basically it. Just all of that.
Freya Ward (37:48.017)
When the budgets are tightened, Tony, where do you think that B to B marketers should focus their investment? What is something that you would always keep on plan? You don’t have to say leads.
Tony Larks (37:57.621)
Swag. Swag all day long.
Tony Larks (37:59.564)
Like… Hang on.
Freya Ward (38:02.883)
Swag, there you go. Well, you were talking about a Dyson bit of a bit of a Dyson F air fan swag earlier, which was super impressive.
Tony Larks (38:09.215)
I know,
Tony Larks (38:10.505)
was primo swag. No, no, my God.
Tony Larks (38:14.785)
So I don’t think it’s just keep one thing. I think you’ve just got to keep everything, but you maybe just got to tighten the plan. I don’t think there’s one hero channel at the moment. I think it’s the mix of channels. My team, I hope my old team will probably watch this, but
Tony Larks (38:30.654)
but I used to do a thing with my team, which is every year we used to make our old selves redundant, before the company made us redundant, make ourselves redundant. So at the end of every year, instead of celebrating what had happened, we would make ourselves redundant.
Tony Larks (38:44.755)
and then start the next day as a brand new employee in that brand new company, being able to look back at old you and say like old Tony last year, he was actually not bad. Like I look at his numbers, he did some really good stuff. Actually, there’s a few things we should drop. And then it was always a case that you’d have to deliver 50 % more with like 20 % less resource. So, but.
Tony Larks (39:06.368)
I’d always argue that if you were to be hired into that role and you didn’t have that five years of history, you’d be embracing that opportunity. But because you’ve been there five years, think, they cut my budget, they want more from me. But if you approach it from a brand new standpoint, which is actually, what did I do last year that I shouldn’t be doing again? That’s whole stop start continue. You can drive optimization in your own program.
Tony Larks (39:28.708)
The challenge is the more you’ve been in a company, you feel wedded to the results and your history. And I had a boss in early in my career who said, you can’t
Tony Larks (39:36.361)
change the past. Standard economics, you can’t change what’s gone behind you. But we always carry our failings with us. And this sort of reset was a great way of just saying, well, old Tony’s gone or old Ryan’s gone or old Max has gone. Let’s not worry about old Max because he had a shocking year last year. But good news is I’m starting day one in my new job. We’d even be talking meetings with our peers in other functions. was like we were talking about something I haven’t last year. was like, yeah, old Tony didn’t do a great job of that. But we’re going do it differently.
Tony Larks (40:06.241)
this year. We’ve approached it, we’ve looked at the data, we’re going to try this instead. But again, trying to optimize less budget, more outcomes. If you can do that, you’re constantly looking for that incremental improvement. I’m not sure if that answered the question actually, I think we just went off on like a psychological rant. So there’s probably some, you’re HR Freya from way back when sitting there going, my God, this is horrible. They made themselves redundant.
Freya Ward (40:24.873)
No.
Freya Ward (40:30.577)
No, not at all. I think no, I mean, when
Freya Ward (40:34.39)
you first said make yourself redundant, I was thinking, where’s this gonna go, Tony? But I love that. I love that mental reset because we do we we we have a quarterly social every year. every every year, every quarter, believe it or not. every week. We have a quarterly social at our company and we all get together and it is very much a social and our managing director does a speech every quarter. And
Tony Larks (40:38.113)
Who knows?
Tony Larks (40:46.463)
Yeah, every week, every week.
Freya Ward (40:58.407)
It’s only in preparation for that speech that he really truly reflects on the on the highlights and the challenges of the previous quarter, not just financials, but you know, what what promotions have happened, what what else has happened. And I think if you can almost do that yourself within your marketing department, I like the redundancy and then new hire. You you bring in a new person to any business and they they don’t see the cracks, right? And they approach it with such enthusiasm. we brought in a marketing graduate
Tony Larks (41:05.259)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (41:10.23)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (41:28.405)
last year and the enthusiasm is so infectious. I absolutely love it. And I know you’ve done a lot of work in the past, Tony, with interns, and I think that fresh set of eyes and that enthusiasm we went to a his his first trade I’m sure he won’t mind me saying this, took him to his first trade show in November last year and we had tickets for
Tony Larks (41:33.803)
Yep.
Tony Larks (41:44.31)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (41:48.893)
two days at the trade show I think it was and we were just going myself and I had a marketing were just going on the second day and he was like, please can I go across both days? And we were like, Fill your boots, my friend
Tony Larks (41:57.909)
Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.
Freya Ward (42:00.731)
He loved it and when we met him at the event on the second day, the amount of information he’d gathered and the enthusiasm and I thought, yeah, I need to take this on board myself because it’s not because I don’t enjoy the shows. I love the shows and I love meeting people, but I approach it through the lens of someone that has worked in trade shows and and you know, walked this floor and all of that so many times that actually just that that reflection and that reset of going in with new eyes.
Tony Larks (42:11.179)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (42:17.995)
time he is.
Freya Ward (42:30.269)
Yeah, it’s amazing. What an opportunity. and I love I love being able to to to put it in a position of make yourself redundant, rehire yourself or employ yourself the next day, and actually referring to yourself as, you know, old Freya versus New Freya.
Tony Larks (42:42.113)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (42:46.431)
No, it’s and sometimes you can, old Freya can still get a sap. No, old Freya gets the same salary.
Freya Ward (42:52.487)
Ha ha ha.
Tony Larks (42:53.312)
It’s great how you talk about grads though, because I do think that’s the element of what we can do now for that generation of marketers coming through. And I was talking to a group of marketers a couple of months ago, and we were talking about university. I didn’t go to university, you didn’t go to university. But people coming through university aren’t taught B2B marketing, they’re taught the Hollywood of marketing. It’s like B2C and advertising, which is amazing. But it’s like going to LA and saying, I’m going to be an actor. The reality is, half if not more of those are going to get roles in B2B.
Tony Larks (43:23.255)
to be so it requires organizations like Headley or Tainium like the jobs roles that I’ve been in and I’ve been really lucky going back 30 years like some of the interns that I hired 30 years ago are now SVPs of tech companies in EMEA. I still tell them they all owe me one just buy me for a day and that’s why like more recently I’ve been trying to get like two or three through a year because I think if I can get a big number of interns now into industry that’ll sort out my retirement nowhere.
Tony Larks (43:53.155)
but it’s great to see young talent that’s got will and passion and desire and energy like you describe with your grad and then you can frame what does it actually mean to be a marketer in B2B. How do you educate them is that difference to what maybe they’re like in B2C or they’ve learned in other courses.
Freya Ward (44:11.529)
Mm-hmm.
Tony Larks (44:12.449)
It’s like, it’s just trying to find people with good work ethic. You know, they’ve held down a job outside of being at uni or college or even at home. They go out and they graft and they’re willing to put in the hours because that’s what’s required. And I’ve been totally like blown away. You know, if I look at some…
Tony Larks (44:30.335)
one of mine is like a managing director at Accenture. It’s like probably five times what I’m earning, but had that drive going back to the early 2000s. yeah, there’s a huge opportunity for that next generation of talent coming through. And I think those that are joining now maybe are coming a bit worried because there’s a lot of changing, but shouldn’t worry. I’ve seen the change three or four generations of change over the years, and there’s always an opportunity if you embrace it.
Freya Ward (44:58.119)
B to
Freya Ward (44:58.369)
B marketing in certainly in my experience it’s so cyclical. Okay, it might be digitalized and that’s the difference. Print ads, digital PR, that side of things is starting to come full circle, you know, investment is moving more towards digital PR than ever before because of AI search and AEO and you know, third party endorsement and everything else. So it is so cyclical.
Tony Larks (45:12.01)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (45:26.151)
We love change in B to B marketing though. We we hate it, we’re scared of it, and we love it and we embrace it. And it it it it rings true. It comes back round again in in my experience anyway. what’s one thing you wish you could change about B to B marketing?
Tony Larks (45:34.731)
Yep.
Tony Larks (45:42.293)
my god. I wish we were as cool as B2C marketers. There’s no Hollywood for B2B. There is no Hollywood for B2C. Doing an event in Cannes for B2C marketers, they’re all like the advertising side of it. No, I’m not sure I’ve actually got one wish. I think it just comes back. I do wish that…
Freya Ward (45:46.534)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (46:08.651)
that there was a university that actually taught B2B marketing, that it did become part of a curriculum, that it was something that is recognized because it’s quite disappointing that you’ve got generations of…
Tony Larks (46:24.129)
adults who are coming into the workplace and not really understanding the nuances between B2C or B2B or even B2B2C because there’s so many different versions and across so many different sectors as well. whether it’s like SOHO, small business, large business. And then from a UK perspective, like we’ve got the most amazing tech industry.
Tony Larks (46:51.638)
But it’s nascent compared to the US tech industry. And I don’t want to get into politics at all, that’s a lot to do with the government. If you look at the US government, they’re probably the best marketing tool I’ve ever had. Most of my career I’ve worked with US tech companies. The US government is one of my best marketing tools I’ve ever embraced. But the UK government doesn’t have the same drive. Even though got the same network, they just don’t have the same drive.
Tony Larks (47:17.23)
Maybe that’s my career in politics that’s coming now. It’s like, how can you affect change in government where B2B becomes more common, especially as we’re a services nation, that we actually teach those skills in B2B marketing or we sort of make our tech industry really motor one of those two.
Freya Ward (47:38.971)
I was always taught that B2B B2B marketing’s boring. B2B marketing is the dry version. I’ve built my entire career around B2B marketing. I mean, I’ve worked in slightly I’m not I’m not boring, thank you, Tony. I I’ve worked I I I cut my teeth right at the beginning in an electronics agency. So if you can’t get much drier than electronics B2B marketing, and there was still excitement to be found. There was still
Tony Larks (47:42.123)
Yep.
Tony Larks (47:48.961)
And you’re not boring, Freya. You’re not boring. No.
Freya Ward (48:07.155)
creative campaigns there was still
Tony Larks (48:10.859)
Now come on, how did you get excited
Tony Larks (48:12.667)
about bits, and boards?
Freya Ward (48:16.601)
I would say I mean I can’t eat I can’t eat do you remember mint matchmakers the chocolates they were mint ones well I don’t know if they’re still around I avoid them I avoid them at all costs I I avoid them no I I I never wish to see them again in my life I remember doing my
Tony Larks (48:25.857)
What do you mean remember them? like… Yeah, of course they are. Of course they are. Do they… Do they not have those at Waitrose? Or M &S? No. Matchmakers, get yourself down to Aldi, Freya. Come on.
Tony Larks (48:42.75)
Freya Ward (48:44.179)
first ever direct mailing campaign to I can’t even remember the target audience but it was in the electronics field and it was a play on mint matchmakers and then we had to expand into orange matchmakers because we the shops sold out of the mint ones. and it was with a perfect match and it was around motherboards and connectors and this, that and the other. I had to wrap and mail merge and print off and stick so many wrappers to mint matchmakers that
Tony Larks (48:53.025)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (48:59.648)
Right.
Freya Ward (49:14.183)
they they make me feel unwell now. but yeah, I mean that was creative, that was fun.
Tony Larks (49:19.755)
So like,
Tony Larks (49:20.425)
tell me you’ve not been in B2B marketing without telling me is literally you stickered boxes of chocolates as a, see it comes back, like if you can only invest in one thing in marketing, what would it be? It’s or in your case, your case chocolates. I think today’s equipment would be like a mint chocolate version of a Tony Chocoloni chocolate bar. Yeah, meatier, hardy. Yeah.
Freya Ward (49:28.167)
It does.
Freya Ward (49:33.641)
Should click.
Freya Ward (49:40.337)
Yeah, much, much more Yeah. Yeah. Fancier.
Freya Ward (49:47.731)
Tony, who would you recommend that we invite onto the podcast?
Tony Larks (49:52.501)
So, yeah, that’s a really good question. So could I have like two people? I’m only, because one would make her feel really awkward. I said, ever since I first met her.
Freya Ward (49:57.816)
you may, yeah, absolutely.
Tony Larks (50:06.708)
She joins us one of my first interns in my last company and she’s turned out to be an absolute rock star But I just spent my whole time making her feel uncomfortable by putting her forward for things that she didn’t want to be involved in So yeah, it would be Emma Moss She’s a senior marketer at Tainium She’s been B2B marketing for eight years. I think she went to Bournemouth Uni She’s an absolute absolute rock star But doesn’t feel like she is And I remember when she first joined she wrote and she’ll hate me for telling a
Tony Larks (50:36.003)
but she won’t get this far because it’s like 50 minutes in. But she was quite introverted and quite shy and spent the first three months of her internship sitting as far away from me as possible. And I thought I’d give her the first three months and after that I’d be like, no, no, I’ve got you a new desk and it’s here, right opposite me. And she hated it. But I’d do whatever I could each week to try and get her to do at least one thing that made her feel uncomfortable. And I think this would make her feel uncomfortable. But actually, she was somebody who was the
Freya Ward (50:38.739)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (51:05.876)
learning
Tony Larks (51:06.116)
how to be in Hollywood and she’s now somebody I would say, well, we used to, her name’s Emma Moss. We called her our CMO, our Chief Moss Officer and even made a brand out of it as well. So she’d be one and then probably a proper grownup one. And again, it’s somebody I’ve just reconnected with recently. I worked on a project with him 10 years ago. His name’s Dr. Chris Brower and he was head of AI at University of London, Goldsmiths College. And we did a project with him in NASDAQ.
Tony Larks (51:35.829)
we researched the knowledge gaps between non-exec directors, C-level executives and practitioners in tech companies around the world. So what did a CIO think compared to the CEO compared to the non-exec director? And then we compared countries around the world. And he did an amazing job. But as I followed him more, he is looking at this sort of agentic workflow and the person in the loop. And he’s just super smart.
Tony Larks (52:05.729)
of a tech company called FSP based out of Reading, which is one of these sort of agentic workflow consulting firms that’s been born out of re-engineering processes. But yeah, so you start to look at this whole marketing and that where does the human start and the agent take over and the human finish. He’s thinking a lot about that sort of stuff and not just in marketing but across every function inside business. So yeah, really cool guy.
Freya Ward (52:33.085)
They both
Freya Ward (52:33.556)
sound like excellent guests and I would love I would love to have them both on. Emma sounds like a a champion. How long did you work with Emma for? Eight years. And for seven years and nine months you made her sit opposite you.
Tony Larks (52:42.763)
Eight years.
Tony Larks (52:49.185)
Tony Larks (52:49.989)
Well, near. Obviously we had the Covid years where…
Freya Ward (52:52.902)
Of course.
Tony Larks (52:53.663)
We’d be sitting opposite each other on a screen. She was my first intern at Taneum and then we used her to hire the next. And people go, my God, where’d you find that intern? It’s like, I didn’t find them. The last intern found them. So, but it all started with Emma and she would be a great coach and mentor for new interns coming through. So it was like, intern teach intern. But yeah, I keep saying to her, like she could be a CMO tomorrow if she wanted to be. You know, yeah.
Freya Ward (53:05.001)
Amazing.
Tony Larks (53:22.587)
She’s going to hate me for doing that though, which is brilliant.
Freya Ward (53:24.433)
She’s gonna be absolutely, absolutely
Freya Ward (53:26.325)
furious, but I’m sure we will we will really enjoy the conversation with her and we will definitely reach out to Dr. Chris Brewer as well. I’ve seen some of his content online and it the work he is doing is fascinating. and as someone who loves data and is quite a sceptical person, I I can’t imagine we’d cover off the questions because I think we’d just take us off on a tangent. but I would love to have have him on B2B Marketers off the record.
Tony Larks (53:52.577)
Yeah.
Freya Ward (53:52.879)
One
Freya Ward (53:53.049)
final question for you, Tony. what question would you like us to ask the next guest? Whether it’s Emma or Doctor Chris or or somebody else?
Tony Larks (54:02.348)
Well, actually, what was the question you asked me then that came from the previous guest and who was the guest?
Freya Ward (54:07.655)
We haven’t got to the point where we’re asking next questions. So we’re in our our our founding guest recordings. We have got a list of guests, guest questions, but we are yet to fire them out.
Tony Larks (54:10.545)
Tony Larks (54:15.605)
Yeah.
Tony Larks (54:19.713)
Alright, okay, that’s cool. Got a question for your next guest. Well, I’d always like to be the next marketeer’s fairy godfather or mother. So I’d like to, I could grant them three wishes, what would those wishes be and why?
Freya Ward (54:37.265)
That’s an excellent question and I will be sure to ask it in our next recording. all that’s left is I’ll ask Emma and I’ll say it’s from you. Tony, thank you so much for joining us on B2B Marketers off the record. It has been an absolute pleasure.
